WHEN HELL FREEZES OVER

Brrrrrrrr...........

Even though the sea fog is dangerous, the picture is very pretty. I just don't want to be there.

and Hell, MI isn't quite that frozen this year. ☺

I'd love to see more, also! Deadliest Catch is one of my favorite "reality" shows. I realize there might be some manufacturing of the stories, but it looks like one of the most realistic - and you can't fake the weather or the jobs!

I love this!

Ice fog is the boat killer in the Bering Sea. It comes day and night, and covers all the steel surfaces like the glazing on a donut. It keeps building and growing, until if left unattended it seriously affects the stability integrity of the boat.

I'm sure. When ice builds up in the wheel of a car, it wreaks havok. Sometimes it's so bad that you can't keep control of the vehicle... Because it throws all balance off.
Hell, if the balance on a crankshaft is thrown out of whack, it will throw a rod or few through the oil pan and shatter a piston rod. There's a reason for weight distribution on any mechanical item or vehicle of any kind [land or sea]. I can't imagine how hard it is to remove all that. Do ships have a deicing system of any kind like an aircraft?

MsA, see the pictures. The de-icers are big hammers.

Yeah, and, even with cleats, it's really hard to swing a big hammer when the deck is so slippery that you can barely stand up at all, even if you do belay yourself to the rail. It's a really dangerous business and those guys deserve every dime they get and more.

Well, then maybe I'll engineer something. Something FAR safer than hammers and cleats. I have ideas spinning already. ☺

Aub,

Think in terms of a small air hammer that could be used with one hand (while the other is used to hold on) but still have as much punch as a large sledge. Might even be an already on the shelf item, cheap enough to be cost effective and not adding topside weight (a definite no no on any ship) the way a fixed system of heaters would do. Stay within those parameters and you might just come up with something.

I'm thinking industrial vibrator. Makes no difference if metal or wood, could do large areas quickly, easy to set up, cheap to buy.

I was thinking along the lines of hard rubber on the surface of the deck that at anytime can be turned on to fill with air at a rapid rate to break the ice [literally] along with a spray of pure Isopropal Alcohol for additional assistance as an antifreeze/defreeze. That's the idea behind an aircraft deicing system. You can't tell me that there's no thought behind weight on an aircraft.

MsA, that sounds prohibitively expensive for a fishing boat and doesn't seem to cover the main areas of concern. The superstructure, masts, etc. will be where the additional weight has the most impact. Closer to the waterline, it would tend to act more as ballast.

Shouldn't be overly expensive. Isopropyl Alcohol is relatively inexpensive and so would the pump to move it to needed places [there's already electrical available for the pump]. The rubber can be made from recycled tires and made to be much lighter by making it thin. To air up sections of it would just take a quick jolt of air from a compressor which should already be on a fishing boat. You could even set the compressed air up on a simple timer. You could even put the alcohol spray on a timer.

The masts would be using the Isopropyl Alcohol and the superstructure would be a combined effort.

If it were a major weight issue, an aircraft couldn't use it. I can't imagine a system like I"m thinking would weigh even close to what that ice weighs.

It is not the weight of the rubber bladder, it is the inability to use it in those critical areas where it is needed most due to the weight of the ice. The higher above the waterline, the greater the moment arm.

As for the alcohol, fire is a constant threat aboard any vessel. Using a flammable liquid as a deicer is definitely out of bounds. A nonflammable deicer may be a possibility, but it would have to be noncorrosive at the same time.

I was unaware of constant fire hazards. Hm... Lemme think.

What about propylene glycol mixed with nothing else? It's biodegradable and of very low toxicity.

How corrosive to steel, copper, aluminum? What quantities need to be carried? Remember, every pound of added weight is a pound loss for cargo.

Also consider that any liquid sprayed will end up in the sea. For most chemicals, that is a huge problem.

I think the solution will necessarily be mechanical in nature. An industrial vibrator is a small motor with unbalanced weights that set up vibrations in structures. This should produce cracking in the ice that allows it to slough off. The weight of the motor is negligible (less than 50 pounds) and requires no training for use. They may have the capability of being permanently mounted, as well.

I looked at these some years ago in testing for stress relief in metals using resonant and subresonant frequencies. They had no discernible effect on residual stresses, but the vibrations were substantial without being destructive.

You also have to be aware that anything you spray, brush or pump on gets washed overboard with the next wave. Who wants to eat fish laden with toxic chemicals? It's like a freezer that gets caked with ice and the self defroster quits. You have to have warm air, hot water and something to chip away at the ice. In the conditions we've all seen on Deadliest Catch the warm or hot water will freeze faster than it could be applied. The only option is to knock it off without damaging the boat or rigging.

The only option is to knock it off without damaging the boat or rigging.

Right. The vibration system might work but the topside weight must be balanced or the boat will roll over. In addition, of course you have the problem of loss of cargo carrying capacity and the expense of the equipment. I'm thinking more in terms of air impact tools such as you find at any auto supply store. I think that the automotive foundries used to use something like that for knocking sprues off from engine castings. About the size of a small hammer but packed an enormous punch. Pneumatic drive rather than electrical. Unless they are very well waterproofed (adding to weight and expense), electrical tools don't work well on open decks in a storm. Just shove the nose of it up against a rail or steel rigging and hit the trigger (it should feel about like firing an UZI). That should set up the type of vibrations that Lee was talking about and clear ice fairly quickly while leaving one hand to keep yourself on board. The cleats and belay lines are always going to be absolutely necessary. The men must be out on deck, that's where the work is performed. Whether that work is hauling a catch or chipping ice, they still have to be out there. It's impossible to eliminate the necessity so the trick is to make it as easy, fast and safe as possible, in order to minimize the time spent in the danger zone.

TTGA, I agree with the pneumatic drive. That's a good point. However, you can still use the vibrators. They are very light and would cover the majority of the surface needed. In addition, if piped in, they could be activated from the wheelhouse without exposing the crew. Some of the smaller areas would still require hand work, but they could be postponed if necessary.

FOR, not to mention the holding tanks are not water tight and would be contaminated by anything on the deck.

MsA

Also, bear in mind, that anything you might spray on the deck to remove the ice will wind up in the live wells, and possibly kill the crabs, or contaminate them.

Dead crabs = lost money for the entire crew.

Contaminated crabs = sick people. (or worse)

Edit: Sorry, just saw that Lee already pointed that out.

So glad I came across these pics, don. I love watching Deadliest catch and to think you were one of them! Such a scary but surely rewarding job. I know I couldn't live without you guys ;~). That's pretty much the only way I get my protein.

See, you guys are pointing things out I hadn't thought of... I'm thinking about mechanical "general". I understand more of why it wouldn't work for the majority. I just don't know enough about floating vessels.

I got "smarter here" today! ☺

Yes, MsA, it is different and requires specialized experience. Familiarity with the regulatory bodies is crucial, as well.

Well, thank you for helping me learn something new.

I've worked on anything you could probably think of on land [and some that take flight]... With the exception of a snowmobile, but I can't imagine a snowmobile being any different than a motorcycle [as far as machine basics/motor].

It was my distinct pleasure.

deepwater don, hell freezing over is quite common in michigan. check out this flash mob protest that took place in hell.

http://feastoffun.com/topics/news-rumors/2011/02/03/hundreds-gather-in-flash-mob-to-protest-global-warming/

Funny stuff, beej.

Don, I suggest you get one of your fishing buddies to try the vibrator. It is not that hard to waterproof electrical connections, particularly if permanently mounted. If it works, that can be your new career. Let me know and I'll be glad to provide advice.

Guys,

There are basically only two types of vessel that consistently operate in that kind of weather, fishing vessels and warships (cargo ships and cruise ships usually avoid it). There are electrical devices on warships (to include Coast Guard cutters) that will operate even though completely submerged, whether on deck or in a fixed position. Don, if you're thinking that, of course it's no problem with a Carrier, remember that a Destroyer Escort gets just as wet in that type of conditions as any fishing boat and it's electrical gear works and doesn't short out. That seems to be the perspective Lee's coming from since his experience (as is mine) is Navy. There are, however two major differences between warships and fishing boats. First, the extra shielding placed on such equipment is very heavy; any extra weight on a DE doesn't matter that much as long as the topside weight is balanced with the ballast weight. The only payload carried by a warship is ammunition. A fishing boat must carry a payload or the whole trip is nothing but a very unpleasant yachting voyage. The parasitic weight of extra electrical shielding cuts into the profit from the trip and could make the difference between staying in business and bankruptcy. Second, is the problem of direct cost. The special shielding to make electrical devices work in those conditions is very expensive. No fishing boat owner could possibly afford it. The government, of course, is spending someone else's money (ours) and Naval architects couldn't care less what it costs. It has to work EVERY TIME and they don't have to make a profit. Either Lee's idea about the permanently installed vibrators or mine about the air hammers (heated air taken from a number of stations located about the deck) would work if profit was not a consideration. Since it must be a consideration in order to stay in business, you're right; they wouldn't work on any economically viable fishing vessel. Too bad, they're great ideas that would make the crew's life a lot easier but they just can't be used.

TTGA, I guess I'm not making myself very clear. The waterproofing needed for a vibrator is neither heavy (relatively speaking) nor is it expensive. I am not talking about NEMA 12 here. If it were not viable, I would not recommend it.

Don, I understand salt water and fishing vessels very well, as well as other highly corrosive environments. I also have a very good understanding of electrical equipment and circuits, including explosion proof. I have no dog in the fight with ice. Take it for what it is worth.

Those boat pictures are great -- I can feel the cold ---

Also volcanos,whales, eagles, and most generally crappy weather shots.

Yes -- more pictures please!

That would be pretty good to eliminate the middleman. Less time spent and fresher crab as well! :)